Styles definitely need to be more powerful:
Hi Lars,
I agree with your idea and support all of it. To the degree that if Corel thinks we're both crazy, you just watch... Macromonster.com will engineer a CSS-type solution that works from X3+ for this purpose. I can see it in my mind already...and I've allowed for backwards compatibility (though the downsaved ver would save "as doc appears" at a given moment from X3+.
My fear is that Corel might over-think this. Neither of us want something with unneeded complexity.
If it's simple/clean/effective/reliable... this is what users will expect. Oh what a dream to update text instantly thoughout a Draw doc! I get excited thinking about it.
Lars Forslin: Styles definitely need to be more powerful: so that they can update the text tagged with a certain style when the style changes make it easy to build new styles upon a mother style, so changes to the mother style cascades down to the child styles, somewhat like in CSS give us global style sheets so we quickly can change appearence of a publication just by importing a new stylesheet (styles with the same name in them could then be updated on the fly, just like on the web [CSS])
Jeff Harrison, Featured Instructor
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hi Lars,
I did some more digging: built in style are quite good, I always thought they forced too much change, or were limited in options.
But, in X3 at least, lots of parameters to include (or not) with a style. This is flexible, I like it.
For my work, I might have only 3 different styles used on a whole project, for design consistency. But still some major missing things;
1. having a way to update items on the page without having to select them first. User should be able to change a style, and the text just updates. Since built in styles are quite flexible, you can force point size changes.. or not. Or whether justification is included.. or not. cool.
2. An ez way to back up and open fave styles on other systems.
Lars Forslin:Styles definitely need to be more powerful:
Jeff Harrison:I always thought they forced too much change
I don't see what you mean here...
Jeff Harrison:User should be able to change a style, and the text just updates.
Absolutely, that was my first point.
Jeff Harrison:Since built in styles are quite flexible, you can force point size changes.. or not.
I don't follow you here... Might be a language thing.
Jeff Harrison:An ez way to back up and open fave styles on other systems.
That's very good. Of course this should be a paramount objective for all user files in the suite. Also a migrating wizard or something like that.
But I suppose if styles were to be global, they would be saved in one file so easy to back up.
Jeff Harrison:For my work, I might have only 3 different styles used on a whole project, for design consistency.
Are you referring to text styles only, like me? I forgot that there are graphic styles too. But I never use them, of course treating graphic styles in the same way could open up vast possibilities. like if you want to change colors/color model/outlines/manner instantly.
PS Were you serious about the macro in your last post?
I thought styles always included all elements of a style saved before. This means that text is always forced to a certain point size, color, and justification every time. But any of these (plus more) are separate options when looking deeper into what a style is comprised of. This is great...
Lars Forslin: Lars Forslin:But I suppose if styles were to be global, they would be saved in one file so easy to back up. Jeff Harrison:I always thought they forced too much change I don't see what you mean here...
Lars Forslin:But I suppose if styles were to be global, they would be saved in one file so easy to back up.
There is good and bad to this. If a client's project uses specific text styles, there shouldn't be too many in list to pick from, only ones for that client. most of the time user does not need to see all styles in master list, only the ones needed for a certain project on hand. A global flle allows access to all saved, but could be overwhelming since user might have 50 text styles in one place for their 20 clients. But the single master list would handy for storing/trading. Since.. it is some work to initially set up...
Lars Forslin:Are you referring to text styles only, like me? I forgot that there are graphic styles too. But I never use them, of course treating graphic styles in the same way could open up vast possibilities. like if you want to change colors/color model/outlines/manner instantly.
I agree - great potential that no one uses (that I know)
Lars Forslin:PS Were you serious about the macro in your last post?
I am always serious when it comes to macros...:-)
The macro I envision would work with existing infrastructure to create a dramatically improved user experience with saved styles.
The feel of an entire design - for text and/or graphics - document wide - could change in a few button presses with my idea.
Jeff Harrison:I thought styles always included all elements of a style saved before. This means that text is always forced to a certain point size, color, and justification every time. But any of these (plus more) are separate options when looking deeper into what a style is comprised of. This is great...
Oh, I think I get it now. You mean styles are just like in CSS, you can make a font choice for <body> but you don't have to specify size or anything, as you can do that in for example the <p> tag and then diferently in the <h1>, <h2> and <h3> tags. And then if you just change the font choice in the <body> tag, that will cascade down to the <p> and <h> tags if you haven't specified a certain font in those, because in the <h> tags you just specify font size, if you do want the same font as in <body>. Yes, that's how it should work, the styles should cascade. But do they really do that now? Yes, in a sense, because if you save a style for say paragraph text, then apply a bullet list and save that list as another style, then it will also contain information on what font and font size to use. But if you change the font in the mother style, the bullet style won't reflect that change, right? But are you saying that you could edit out the font and font size from that style and just let it contain info on the bullet size and style?
Jeff Harrison:There is good and bad to this. If a client's project uses specific text styles, there shouldn't be too many in list to pick from, only ones for that client. most of the time user does not need to see all styles in master list, only the ones needed for a certain project on hand. A global flle allows access to all saved, but could be overwhelming since user might have 50 text styles in one place for their 20 clients. But the single master list would handy for storing/trading. Since.. it is some work to initially set up...
My vision for global styles are that you should be able to save different style sheets, and then apply one of these or another, to a publication. In my terminology a style sheet comprises of a set of styles, preferrably it covers the basic stuff like paragraph text, paragraph text with indents, bullet lists, first paragraph, intermediate headlines and two or three other headings.
If Corel were smart (and boy, aren't they), they would create a standard set of tags, that would be a little more diversified than the current set (save for the bullets and special bullets...) and then if you stick to these pre-named styles, you could change the whole appearance of a publication just by importing another style sheet to it. You see?
Jeff Harrison: The macro I envision would work with existing infrastructure to create a dramatically improved user experience with saved styles. The feel of an entire design - for text and/or graphics - document wide - could change in a few button presses with my idea.
I think we are into the same thing. Wouldn't it be great if we didn't have to wait until X5 to have this?!
Jeff, I see what you mean now that I have worked some more with styles. If I create one default paragraph style and then change one paragraph to have a first-line indent, then I can save only the indent as a new style and then apply it to any paragraph text, and it will change only the indentation. That makes it very versatile.
Yes, it's better than I expected with the flexible components of a single style.
The next step is my tagging system I envision. Tagged text will change it's style throughout a whole doc like with CSS. Also my system supports "graphic styles", for tagging.
Color styles are different - my system would be less headache than that.
Lars Forslin: Jeff, I see what you mean now that I have worked some more with styles. If I create one default paragraph style and then change one paragraph to have a first-line indent, then I can save only the indent as a new style and then apply it to any paragraph text, and it will change only the indentation. That makes it very versatile.